Podcast: in conversation about At the Library — bella milroy, maria brewster & laura yates

Part of Soft Sanctuary Season

Artist Bella & our lead curator, Maria Brewster, caught up to chat about Bella’s on-going programme for Soft Sanctuary and Maria’s drive to create, curate and deliver participatory art in library contexts.

In this podcast, they share wisdom on the essential elements of good community-led practice, the library as a space for self-led personal development and touch on what young artists can do to develop a practice with communities at the heart.

A full transcript of the podcast is below.

LY: This is a conversation between artist Bella Milroy and At the Library lead curator Maria Brewster as part of Bella’s work with At the Library Soft Sanctuary. The conversation was facilitated by me, Laura Yates, one of the producers of the At the Library programme.

Bella has worked with us at the libraries in an number of ways first through a collaboration with artist Sean Roy Parker in the skill sharing programme Pool Our Resources and secondly in a series of workshops throughout Autumn 2019 which celebrated the nature of the library as a place to relax, feel safe and looked after: cosy duvet-day vibes with a morning workshop, free meal and accompanying mental-health colouring book.

Maria shares what drives her to create these projects and some deep wisdom around the principles of great participatory programmes.

In this podcast you’ll hear Bella and Maria discussing her practice as well as Maria explaining her drive to create, curate and deliver this kind of work in library contexts. We’ll touch on the essential elements of good community practice, the library as a space for self-led personal development and what young artists can do to develop a practice that has group and collaborative work at its heart.


Bella Milroy’s Soft Sanctuary Podcasting Programme has been commissioned by Rule of Three Arts through it’s At the Library Project and Sefton Libraries Service developed and is  funded by Art Council England and The National Lottery.

We hope you enjoy.

MB: I’m Maria. I’m an arts organiser, producer, curator.  My interest and the kind of drive of what I do is always been around how you can bring together what artists do and can offer with what is going on, socially, economically and politically, so that communities can begin to benefit from those creative activities and ideas and thinking, and can be active collaborators and participants in shaping a culture that works for them that addresses what they want from from their lives and maybe gives them permission to think and behave in different ways and take a bit of control over those things. I started off on this track, I suppose, when I was working at an organization called FACT in Liverpool an ran a programme called the collaboration programme which was at first a really quite small part of what FACT does but we grew with a whole team of collaborators into a really cool part of how FACT started to describe itself and think about itself as an organization that engaged, communities, young people, older people, people who would not necessarily always have access to projects and programmes that happen in a cultural centre, but to see what happens when you invite artists to work with them on their own terms. And so that led to a whole bunch of programmes including a thing called tenantspin, which was initiated by an artist group called Superflex. I just remained fascinated in that kind of work and what would happen with that kind of work. So I’ve ended up working with Sefton Libraries service now for nearly three years because after a long time not working in arts organizations, I really wanted to channel my energy into working close to my local community and in my local community. I wanted to see what would happen if I focused there rather than in other places to which you sometimes are invited. So the library work is a really cool strand of thinking about what our local places are like. It’s a really amazing place to do things because it’s not project based. The library will always be there. It’s statutory and it must remain so it gives you a different potential than something that is short term or three weeks long.

BM: My name is Bella, Bella Miroy and I am an interdisciplinary artist. I’m based in my hometown of Chesterfield in North Derbyshire. Interdisciplinary is the term I describe, just work in general, because I didn’t really put much emphasis on mediums in what my work is, because I’m just kind of interested in most things. And so I kind of like apply myself to specific spaces, or people or programmes. I think I’m essentially interested in how we connect and make contact with the world around us. I think that kind of comes out in lots of different ways. I think touch and handheld is always a kind of driving feature throughout a lot of my visual work, like photography, and text. And that’s always a super, super, super exciting way to work. Because as Maria was just describing there, like the kind of interacting with libraries has this wonderful way of being both the kind of a material format of like, both the space and the kind of documentation, archival nature of libraries. And so that in itself is exciting as an artist to explore, research. When I was on residency at the women’s art library in 2017, you know, that was very much approaching the library in that way is more of a kind of material exploration. But then as Maria says, this is an incredibly fluid, cultural community space as well. And so being able to explore both those aspects as an artist is just, yeah, I don’t think we can get more exciting spaces to be in, and explore like that. Part of the residency at the Women’s Art Library at Goldsmiths ended up being turned out into this more kind of longer, reaching project exploring conservation of women’s art. And we ended up bringing it to my hometown, Chesterfield in Derbyshire. And that kind of made me consider libraries in general as like these incredibly engaging and important cultural spaces like that and inspiring and also like an informative kind of foundation laying for me in terms of the spaces I want to be in, the spaces I want to work in. I think libraries are always like a very go- to place for me now in terms of engaging with other people and also, engaging with like undervalued and underappreciated, underappreciated audiences as well. So working with Derbyshire libraries allowed me to present the work in the Derbyshire Prison Libraries to an audience we never consider, we never think about engaging with and have the work sitting in those kinds of spaces, in a very seamless and streamlined way. It’s, for me, about kind of slotting into those spaces and systems that already exist, rather than trying to present wholly new spaces, because culturally these fantastic cultural spaces are already thriving and, and supporting so many people. And I describe it often it’s like being this like a parachute artist coming in and bringing culture, there’s no need to do that, because it’s already there in its own way. And it’s about slotting into that. That’s what I find really exciting about working with libraries,

MB: Sometimes artists can go through a brief relationship and make an incredible intervention in something.

BM: And I think just from what you’re saying it’s exactly what it’s felt like working with At the Library is that you know, that not only is there an investment in how the work comes about, and what that looks like, but then what it means in the kind of longevity of it, and how it how it, is experienced by people. There’s great care every level to that. And it’s just very clear. Going to an At the Library event or, or just turning up to the library space and it’s clear that that’s that’s what it means. So it’s very nice to be able to do that.

MB: I feel like the library because it’s this it’s self education, you know, set up for self learning and self directed development that’s always been its purpose. So it feels like it’s okay to kind of operate in those spaces. Because there’s always a potential to carry on, you know, even if that has stimulated something. And actually the flip side of it as I think, because libraries contain ideas and knowledge about nearly everything.

BM: And I think that sounds to be reflected in the audience that you gather when you work in those kinds of spaces. Because there’s an understanding of who they are and what they mean to that space, rather than the kind of more kind of quintessential sort of quote un quote art spaces or galleries and that kind of thing, which, and just by the very definition, are exclusionary to so many people, because people simply don’t feel like they belong in those spaces. And so working in the libraries is that completely baseline understanding of people belonging there and not necessarily in a kind of exclusionary sense of like, they only belong there, but in a welcoming sense that, that everybody is welcome there. And, like you say, there’s that kind of wonderful exploration of learning and creativity that can happen, because nobody’s like, having to kind of change gear to turn up there.

MB: You know, I think there’s something really amazing about the fact that there are library spaces in so many small townships and villages, and everything.

And I was reading something the other day about the idea of the 15 minute city, which seems even more pertinent now than maybe ever before the idea of a really, hyper local, cultural centre. And that’s what a lot of these libraries are, or should be, or could be, depending on what’s going on in them. It’s just the idea that you can get everything you need within 15 minutes walk. Why should people have to take an unaffordable and perhaps risky public transport, to go to experience contemporary art practice or participate in something that makes them feel good, or that gives them something to look forward to? That’s the beauty of those cultural spaces that already exist in so many smaller places not at city level.

Obviously, that also takes time and money and care and energy and a real commitment to that, and there are so many pressures on those institutions to do other things as well that it’s sometimes hard.

BM: I think what you’re saying there is really is really important as well, because it’s like about, again, it’s not about bringing in contemporary art, it’s recognizing the value of all of the ingredients that go into the meeting of those things, isn’t it?

Not almost fetishizing community practices to these people, these people are so special, and wonderful and amazing, or whatever, or, or they need contemporary art in their lives, or whatever, it’s about this wonderful melting pot that comes together when access is created to those those experiences, isn’t it, allowing those kind of meeting points to happen. And which feels really nice, because it’s a hard balance to strike.

MB: I think it’s just such a rich environment, it’s such an incredible environment, what you could do is almost limitless, you know, it could be a much bigger programme of activity in more libraries with more people and more stuff. But I think what we kind of managed to do is define what it is going to be we’re going to put a lot of care and time into things and into individuals, and not to worry too much about how many, what the actual, in inverted commas, audience figures would be, but I think what’s really interesting is that the same time the libraries that we work in have seemed to have reversed the national trend for usage and so that footfall and book lending has gone up as well. So that kind of slow burn effect seems to have made some change.

BM: Yeah, I was gonna ask you what it’s like to be working as a kind of annex of the library system, the people that have to operate and run the services there. Because often you’re coming to these spaces, trying to slot in as much as possible in order to not add more work for them because you are aware of what the limits are for them because of austerity. I just wondered, for me I find that really freeing and there is an expansiveness for slotting into that system, I just wondered what that’s like for you, it’s a difficult thing to balance adding value too.

MB: I think within the library, this library service, Sefton Library Service was quite fortunate because they have had a real culture of knowing that what they’re doing is not just about book lending. So they have their approach and approaches that it’s all about providing a community service. And that comes from, you know, the people who are running and managing the library service. And also, I’ve noted that they also have an approach to their staff, which is a very caring approach, and they treat them as human beings, not as numbers of people, we’ve got to go and deliver a function, the staff are much more willing to see taking part in this programme and helping with this programme as part of their actual real job, as opposed to something else on top. There, there are things that we would like to do that we can’t do, and which are less to do with, like the content of things because we can, you know, we’re allowed to, we’re allowed to enable them, we’re encouraged about to make a mess make noise, cook dinner, make smells.

LY: I suppose part of the At the Library programme, too, is examining the role of libraries and promoting this is a space for connection.

BM: And that feels really organic, that kind of promotion as well. And, from what you’ve just said, the fact that your projects, inadvertently supporting more book loans, you know, that’s not on the agenda of what needs to happen at the end of each project. But that is a wonderful kind of byproduct of what happens when you engage with those spaces.

MB: I also think that the staff who are amazing because I’ve seen, the last place where there’s proper public service, you know, in the care and time spent with people who are trying to apply for their benefits or are trying to.. don’t have the mechanism to engage with IT, or finding the right book or the knowledge they have of individual people knowing somebody comes in every week and likes particular kind of thing and keeping that in mind and directing them to new books that come in or things that they might enjoy. I think it’s amazing that they can do that.

BM: I’m just thinking off the top of my head, my granny used to go to Newbold Library at least once a week and they were like, Oh, Hello, Mrs. Milroy, every week. And, you know, for her, she was someone who found, you know, interacting with people really challenging, she didn’t find that easy. And you knew that when she’d engaged with the staff in that way. It was such a boost and something that was a really important part of her hair weekly ritual. Yeah, it’s nice.

MB: Ans really how much everyone kind of enjoyed things like that, in those kinds of human interactions that are not hugely demanding, but actually quite gentle and quite simple. Are the things that that we’re all missing, perhaps, the happenstances, comes together in a room at any point in time and what happens when you’re able to just treat each other with that kind of care and gentleness and respect, that kind of Civic interaction, because so much of your interactions with people are framed by transactions, the exchange of money. You first came to work with us at at the invitation of Sean Roy Parker, who’s created quite a few projects with us. And I wondered what it was that made you say yes to that invitation or what you were expecting, and then I suppose what kind of shifted anything in terms of how you, want to make work

BM: Sean and I had been connecting on Instagram for probably about a year or so. I just love Sean’s work, he’s just such a lovely person. I was really enjoying the kind of way he was using his account (Instagram) and the kind of things he was talking about. We’d done a Seed Swap, where we’d send each other the packets of seeds that we’ve collected, and we’d had like a little kind of back and forth like that of just sharing stuff we were interested in. Sean got in touch with me to ask if I wanted to run a workshop. I think he was the one that suggested some kind of plant or garden workshop or something in February 2019. I think he was just speaking my language. I was like, of course, that sounds absolutely brilliant, that sounds really lovely. I think particularly to do gardening workshops at that time of year February, felt like a really nice challenge to bring out various aspects of those practices gardening that you wouldn’t expect at that time of year. So it was really nice, just on a personal level, it was really nice to show those kinds of the fragrances of the garden and things like that, bring it into the library space. I remember that being really special and remembering bringing a Sarcococca which is the Christmas, Sweet Box plant, which comes into flower around end of December, January time, and it’s just the most beautiful, really powerful fragrance, I remember bringing that one in particular the library smelling really, really nice and that felt really good. So it’s kind of like that, it was it was a no brainer, say yes to something that Shaun was organizing and, and not heard of At the Library before, it felt like a reflection of what I already knew which is this lovely kind of amalgamation of lots of different connections and, and practices that had their fingers in lots of kind of different spaces, particularly within that kind of human engagement like that.

And so, yeah, turning up, and on the day, it was exactly what I imagined it would be in that way. So it was just really wonderful, these lovely events happening at the same time and skill sharing, cooking, and just sharing drinks. Greg Herbert, just making tea in the lovely ceramic pots he’d made, felt like a really, really lovely kind of space just to set up and be a part of that in  that way, and seeing that the fluidity of how the space has been used not just in terms of the content that was happening from the creators, but also like the way in which there were children just kind of like running in and out and adults too. And like kind of using the furniture and the spaces there was this lovely, meshing and merging of how the library was being used and engaged with that. None of which cancelled any of the others out there wasn’t this kind of like: ‘excuse me, we’re running a workshop here.’ It was just really lovely things happening all at once add to all the experiences people where having from it. How the library needs to be approached in that way, allowing it to be the space it is allowing people to use it in the way they need to. And also allowing room for exploration, creativity, and self directed kind of learning in that way. So yeah, it felt like the kind of perfect example of what a At the Library project looked like.

MB: I think as well, it’s quite interesting in the invitations, artists and there is very much a sense that the artists we’ve work with more than once, or repeatedly have often been the artists who say say things like, I wouldn’t have got my GCSEs if it hadn’t been for Library, or I have my first Saturday job in a library, or my mum was a Librarian. These amazing connections that people have with these spaces.

BM: Yeah. And I think that’s what’s been really lovely. For me as an artist working in this space I submit to the space in lots of ways, because there is really only so much control you have there, which I think is a really exciting premise as an artist to turn up to a space in which you’ve had only a very certain amount of control in what actually happens. I don’t think people hold back in the same way about asking What is this thing? or what am I doing here? You know, I remember that when I ran the first workshop for Soft Sanctuary last year, was the accesses meditation workshop, which was exploring accessibility on online spaces, like English description, writing, and closed caption writing. Something that I’m really passionate about and I spend a lot of time doing, it’s quite a big part of my practice. Of course, I’m turning up and most people are like: What is that, though? and almost a hard sell in that initially, they didn’t really know anything about it. And are they really that interested in it? You realize that it’s not about the thing I’m talking about, it’s about what we’re doing together in in that moment,

MB: I think it’s trust between the people who are coming into the space and the organizing of it. I think it’s trusting the artists and also that the artist is trusting the organising. And that those things have to operate in that space of trust. And I also think sometimes what happens in settings that aren’t art settings when artists are invited to get involved is that the idea of what’s going to happen is described by somebody who is not an artist, or doesn’t know artists or how to work with artists. And so they might describe something that was within the limits of their own imagination, or their own scope of reference. And therefore, they then look for an artist who can deliver their idea, rather than building a relationship with an artist, because they think, well, they’re on the same page here. And then what can happen if we bring our ideas together, in a kind of reciprocal understanding. I just think that so much more is possible if the focus is on the relationships rather than the brief. Because then you can expand out from something that might be quite rigid or quite prescriptive, or you’re quite limited, or quite limiting into something that could  be really transformative in someway if everybody trusts each other.

LY: I think for the members of the community and the people who participate we have people really diverse from all different backgrounds. Often people haven’t felt seen for a very long time, or, you know, day to day life is quite hard. So to just have this break in the pressure to do even something that even seems a bit mad to them.

BM: That’s exactly what happened with the workshop I was referring to the accesses meditation one. Laura, you were there alongside me as this really lovely kind of reassuring presence to everybody that this person they’ve ever met before is like, they’re cool, they’re okay, just go with it. And you have this lovely kind of mediator of that, and you could tell that the workshop, like, had so much more added value from your presence there, I think there’s just so many exciting meeting points that happen, like simultaneous, like, all the time at various different moments throughout how these these things come come about, you know, the participants, between artists and participant between producers. Yeah, this is a really lovely, exciting kind of meeting points that happens all the time. It’s really nice.

LY: And all these elements have to be there, I suppose, like, we were thinking deeply about how to formalize or how to down essential elements of safe community work, because safety doesn’t mean like don’t stab yourself with the scissors always it can also mean psychological safety. We’re opening up discussion and, and minds and things like that. So we have to be very conscious that people might have very little capacity in other parts of their lives. So when we’re working in that environment, you have to be very, very intuitive and sort of reading the group, you need to sort of go, how’s he feeling? Is that OK?

MB: If you’re a young artist wanting to work in settings, what do you need to think about? Or what do you need to do? I suppose, I was thinking that really, it’s going back to the idea that, as an artist, you’re not the teacher, you know, you’re not different to anyone else taking part, you are part of that temporary community, whilst it was whatever you’re doing is happening. And you should, you know, the artist should be valued for bringing what they bring, but so is everybody else, nobody is a blank canvas, and everybody brings something to the space at that particular moment in time, that comes from everything they have every lived before, the idea that we’re working from a kind of an asset based model where everybody’s bringing something and that together, something more can happen, rather than a deficit model – people have got a lack, and therefore this will address that, you know, it’s like that shift. And I think that’s quite a big deal to get your head around maybe as a young artist, that your role, perhaps isn’t necessarily always going to be to impart something to make space for people to, learn something together, or, yeah, learn something together.

BM: I’d just reiterate that kind of feeling of it, of keeping your art ego in a different space, and,

I think so much of what we perceive the art world to demand of us is this kind of, you know, the artist is the central focus in that way. And, and, you know, this great shining light of knowledge and creativity that everyone should pay attention to like you say, it’s, rather than it being this kind of, vantage point is at the artist, it’s at the space and the centre of library, which they say, is you plus everybody else. If you don’t, if you don’t find if you don’t think that’s valuable, then that’s not the space for you. If you want to put it in, like artspeak, it’s, just like a big studio like that. You’re just sharing, the best advice you can ever impart on anybody going to art school is just like, your studio and your peers, your are your best resource, you know, the people around you and who you’re having those seemingly meaningless, mundane conversations with some of the most important conversations that you’ll have the library in that way is just another kind of model of that very kind of integrated studio space like that.

MB: I think the thing is that I’ve always taken a hyper collaborative approach to everything. So yeah, and then what’s quite interesting about all of that is once you decide that how you’re going to go about things everything is an outcome of everybody’s energy and effort. Not

you know about, you know your own role in that.

LY: So that’s the third podcast in this series created by Bella Milroy. I am Laura Yates and I am one of the Producers for the At the Library Programme. Rule of Three’s is a small not for profit arts company founded by Maria Brewster and Sue Potts to develop and create small beautiful projects with community and artists development at its heart. Our thanks to Bella for her continued love and support for the work and people of At the Library.